in. ireland. martin in washington d.c. and here's what's coming up tonight on the big picture. on friday twenty children went to school in newtown connecticut planning to see their friends and to learn so they became the latest victim of america's gun violence epidemic how do we make sure these little children didn't die in vain washington finally put american interests ahead of gun lobby interests all that and more internet is a bigger picture discussion on gun violence in america and last night president

obama spoke at a vigil honoring and remembering the victims of the sandy hook tragedy and while comforting the families in the entire town he suggested that we have no choice but to act to prevent future tragedies from occurring is this the president's defining moment and if so how will he handle it. you need to know this the suicide mass killing in newtown has provoked senator dianne feinstein to propose going back to the assault weapons ban that george w. bush let lapse in two thousand and four that's a nice start but increasing numbers of americans are calling for a ban on all guns except for those carried by people who actually need them and there's a strong argument to be made for the charles koch foundation which was founded in

one nine hundred seventy four and then changed his name to the cato institute two years later i would like you to know something about gun control in a commentary titled gun control myths and realities their director of publications david lamp oh right the facts show that there is simply no correlation between gun control laws and murder or so. suicide rates across a wide spectrum of nations and cultures in israel and switzerland for example a license to possess guns is available on demand to every law abiding adult and guns are easily obtainable in both nations both countries also allow widespread carry of concealed firearms and yet admits dr arthur kellermann one of the foremost medical advocates of gun control switzerland and israel have rates of homicide that are low despite rates of home fire ship ownership that are at least as high as those in the united states sounds pretty compelling right it sounded so solid that the washington post as her kleine quoted it in an op ed for that publication right after the newtown murders and then he discovered that just because something comes

from the former charles koch foundation now the cato institute doesn't mean that it's true in an article titled myth busting israel and switzerland are not gun toting utopias klein set the record straight when he interviewed assistant professor of epidemiology at the school of public health at the state university of new york and general rosenbaum who i interviewed also on my radio program today for about a quarter hour she's an expert who's actually researched the issue of gun control and gun violence in israel and switzerland back lived in israel in both countries there is no equivalent of our second amendment as interpreted by the supreme court in allaround than two years later in mcdonald in other words there is no right for an individual to own a gun in either of those nations it's worth noting the both countries recognize physical and mental health care as a right but here in america we reversed that the supreme court tells us largely by omission that physical and mental health care are merely privileges while they

explicitly declare or have for about two years that we have the right to own a gun. not so in israel or switzerland as dr rosenbaum notes both countries require you to have a reason to have a gun there isn't this idea that you have a right to a gun you had you need a reason and then you go you need to need to go back to the permeating authority every six months or so to assure them the reason is still valid as a consequence of this you pointed out decline there are only a few tens of thousands of legal guns in israel and the only people allowed to own them legally live in the settlements do business in the settlements or are in professions at risk of violence for centuries what's left is had a citizens' militia instead of a standing army much like that vision by jefferson and many of the other founders for america every able bodied male spends a bit of time in the militia and so the story goes as a gun in his home but the story is wrong says rosenbaum instead of keeping guns in

people's homes she told klein in switzerland they've been moving to keeping the guns in depots that means they're not of the household which makes sense because the literature shows us that if the gun is in the household the risk goes up for everyone in the household and interestingly they're doing the same thing in israel as rosenbaum told klein in israel it used to be that all soldiers would take their guns home with them on the weekends now they have to leave them on base over the years they've done this it began i think in two thousand and six has been a sixty percent decrease in suicide on weekends among i.d.s. israeli soldiers that's because there's a clear correlation between having a gun in the house and the risk of suicide because suicidal impulses come and go but if they come when guns are out there are a lot easier to carry out and as in the case of newtown and most of our mass shootings to carry out in a way that is made very very high profile by being able to kill

a bunch of other people the same time. we have our priorities totally wrong here in the united states the koch funded american legislative exchange council which brings together corporate lobbyist and republican state legislators to write model legislation to introduce a republican controlled states on behalf of the corporations has been doing everything they can to help out the gun industry as reported by alex cain on alter net they include laws that would increase guns on campus that would do away with waiting periods to buy guns more stand your ground laws like the one elegant passed in florida no borders to firearm movement between states and knowing local gun control regulations put in jail government officials who take away people's guns in emergencies promoting more semiautomatic weapons like those used by the newtown killer so we have this right to guns in america the koch brothers are heavily invested in. this granted their people right

to have a well regulated militia in this country jefferson lost that battle two centuries ago and therefore there's nobody who should have a right to a gun in america going about gun rights in this country a phrase that's been used more and more thanks to a hard push by gun manufacturers lobbies and their bought and paid for members of congress we should be asking who needs to own a gun and then limit gun ownership to only those people who can demonstrate that need meanwhile we should be looking at things that the rest of the developed world long ago determined our basic human rights even the u.n. has enshrined them as such and move toward making physical and mental health care free and fully accessible to all our citizens along with high quality and free education from kindergarten through a ph d.

. the former charles koch foundation now named cato is right that israel and switzerland are models we should look at even though they got their facts wrong about those countries in both countries people have rights to education and health care and no right to own a gun unless they can prove they actually need one and it's worked out very well for the citizens of both countries we should learn from and copy their example now for more my pappa tonio is here again he's attorney and host of ring of fire radio mike welcome back tom how are you just great great to have you with us what do you think of the president's speech last night i thought it was good i thought he sounded the human to human side they got him elected that's what we saw and it's he's at his very best when he is when he's speaking in situations like this do you think that there's a possibility of the this could be a defining moment for his presidency. yeah i think it could every presidency has

its you know yes j.f.k. had the cuban missile crisis that defined his presidency f.d.r. had the depression that define his presidency this could be more importantly i think even the health care issue because look when you have eighty people a day dying because of because of our abuse and our lack of understanding about gun laws it can have a huge impact on his legacy i think tell you courage though yeah well do you do you think that his legacy is going to hands on this or do you think that there are i'm you know it seems like there are other very large issues that are the climate change being one of the really big ones that could compete with this i mean are the words is this just really really hot right now and it's going to fade over time or . it depends on what he does with it you know he has when he when he came into office we heard a lot of discussion about the need to do something and then we didn't see anything

now obviously this isn't this isn't the defining moment is one of those moments where you know with kennedy for example there's a cuban missile crisis is there was the race to space but when you look at the cumulative in two to that presidency you came away understanding that he had accomplished some very important social issues that we still benefit from today so i think it's hugely important and i think i think this might be the time when he actually says you know what i can't just talk about it anymore i actually have to do something and how telling do you think it is that both n.b.c. and c.b.s. asked all thirty one pro-gun republican senators to come on their sunday programs and all of those senators declined yeah well i think what's happening tom is that horrendous tragedy like this has the capacity finally to force washington the gutless n.r.i. in or a congressional lap dogs to understand that the n.r.a. is really all smoke. in mirrors and i think

a lot of them are trying to figure that out for themselves what kind of standard they want to make and what i mean by that is if you take a look at the numbers just the sheer numbers and the impact of the n.r.a. in the political process they spent eleven million dollars this last cycle they had a one percent success rate failed ninety nine percent of the time in their races and i think what's happening with some of these gun lobbyists congressional types is they're sitting back thinking you know do i really want to jump into this right now in till i feel the lay of the land look right now where it comes to paul waldman i don't know if you took a look at the the work paul waldman did in trying to look at the effectiveness of the n.r.a. but that's what these senators are thinking about wildman came out with this study and he said look i looked at the last four federal elections and found that between two thousand and four and i think two thousand in that in the house and senate races the n.r.a. virtually had a zero impact on elections and so i think the senators that you're talking about

the congressional leaders you're talking about finally might be saying you know i better be right this time the. with me i can't get out there in grandstand on behalf of the n.r.a. and maybe they're looking at the n.r.a. i hope and understanding that all it is is like mr oz behind that big curtain they are not effective they're nothing to be afraid of in this is the time for us to keep pushing and finally once and for all make that publicly understood and push back the way they've pushed back for so long so you're suggesting that this could be the moment when the stranglehold of the n.r.a. particular on the republican party but also on rural democrats is broken could be what you have you have a lot of guns being sold but those guns are being sold to a core of the same people overall gun ownership in america is slowly declined within the broader public you have the n.r.a. lack of effectiveness because of a lot of reasons but one reason is the n.r.a.

blindly spends a lot of money they back losers but on the top of that you have the average contribution that the n.r.a. makes is a paltry two thousand five hundred dollars so they're just not as effective as we thought they were remarkable more with my cap and tony on what our nation does after sandy hook after the break.

you know sometimes you see a story and it seems so for lengthly you think you understand it and then you glimpse something else and you hear or see some other part of it and realize everything you thought you knew you don't know i'm tom hartman welcome to the big picture. here is mitt romney trying to figure out the name of that thing that we americans call a donor. i'm sorry i'm just a guy who cares an awful lot about what you sir are a fool you know what kind of mind their terrorist cells in your neighborhood all want to give us a defeat terrorism the only liberal and the christian point you. can see here that the voters. are going to support you to distract us from what you and i should care

about because they're profit driven industry that sells us sensationalistic garbage he calls it breaking news i'm having martin and we're going to break that. it will go back my pappa tonio is here let's get back to a pep is the supreme court in heller and then later in mcdonald's just in the last couple of years these the five right wing cranks on the supreme court of found have discovered in this in order to maintain a well regulated militia part you know those of the second amendment have discovered an individual right to own firearms. it seems to me like increasingly

across america people are saying what seriously if you think that there's going to be any pushback to this. well i think if we have a new court there certainly would be if it is if you read the opinions which which i had to read and as you read the opinions it's a really it's a forced kind of analysis the analysis they jump through hoops to try to take it away from the idea of the clear meaning of it which is to support a militia as opposed to putting a gun in everybody's hands but there were no surprises in in either one of those decisions of heller or mcdonald because they had to get there and so the only thing that's going to change that tom is if we have a new court they can take a fresh look at it look at it there are a lot of lot of same's they left they didn't mean to but they left a lot of seams in both heller and mcdonald so it's not like they can't reverse some of the damage that this right wing court did but given the court that we have right now in the possibility that legislation might be going through congress what are

the odds that i mean right now dianne feinstein is talking about reintroducing the assault weapons ban i don't think that status on heller macdonald but if there was something this that in order to own a gun you have to jump through the same hoops that you have to have to jump through in order to drive a car then it seems like you might run into that what what are your thoughts on how that process might go and whether you think congress has the the the backbone to take on the supreme court or for that matter take on the n.r.a. tom i think they they can be led to take on the n.r.a. once they understand that let you know are a is really a paper tiger they are a pathetic failure where it comes that are ability to move public opinion and when political elections just look at the statistics but really all i think the best we're going to be able to expect in a perfect world and this is very unfortunate but in a perfect world if you think about it the the ban on assault weapons only affects

eighteen kinds of assault weapons there are hundreds of of assault rifles out there that still fall within the meaning of what's. legal for an assault rifle so i think what you're going to see is the congress is going to come up with something and say look we accomplished something this is the same congress tom that didn't renew the assault weapons ban they they're the people who brought us the no background check where you can buy a gun at a gun show and get away with it it's the same congress that stopped the release of crime trace data that was being used by by law enforcement to try to hunt down criminals so they've got a long way to go before they do anything meaningful i am more optimistic that if we can get a supreme court there that are not where you don't have a majority of political hacks that we can change this once and for all and i hope that's the way that that obama will lead in this in this fight against the you know yourself in the battles me and i'm curious if you have any insight into it i guess

the n.r.a. backing you know more and more firearms and lossless restrictions i mean basically they're the trade association for the weapons manufacturers right i don't get that the american legislative exchange council which is the toady group of the koch brothers and you know that's out there backing basically you know corporate efforts and billionaire efforts i don't see why they're so heavily invested in this they've got nine different pieces of legislation out there you know including the infamous stand your ground laws promoting so-called gun rights what's in it for the koch because they're better at understanding the difference between a movement and here's what i mean by that the koch brothers have always approached the onset of the neo con movement in america is a real movement that means that if the gun lobby wants something that we then we saddle up with the gun lobby if the anti-tax people want something we saddle up with them if the immigration anti immigration people want something we saddle up

with them they look at everything is a movement on the other side of that if we if we could. do the same thing if if on the progressive side we can say when labor has a problem the woman's movement comes to labor when woman's movement has a problem labor comes to their help we don't really think of the progressive entity is a movement the same way that the neo cons do and that's why you have the koch brothers say and yes we're fully invested in this fight because in their mind this neo nut movement that is overrunning so many parts of america is a movement this one for all in all for one they they deal with people like the koch brothers on the progressive side we have to deal with people like democracy alliance that is so scattered in their ability to bring a movement together that they never understand the movement is what is important not the into not the individual entity i think you nailed it might happen tony and thanks for joining me tonight thank you. now let's broaden the discussion and get

the bigger picture on gun violence in america tonight's bigger picture discussion panel our josh horowitz executive director of the coalition to stop gun violence jonathan law director of the brady center's legal action project and joining us from los angeles is lori saffin chair and of the board of directors of women against gun violence thank you all for joining me tonight thanks for having us you know thank you much much appreciate it first of all i just. let's just start out with a with a summary of you know broadly where we're at in this right now josh your thoughts on what's going to come out of of this do you think that this that this moment is going to pass the two weeks oh no this is i think this is one of those tipping point moments i actually think this is been developing all year i think the mass massacre after massacre has really created a new consciousness among the american people and this is an inflection point but i think we've learned that the american people are totally behind the things that we

believe in things like background checks at gun shows for for also really and things like us all. bands the other thing is as you mentioned before you know the n.r.a. is not as powerful as they were so that's sort of been shown in the selections so used today you saw some amazing things you saw senator mark warner come out and say i'm going to talk about this all the span and joe manchin saying i can't i can't be silent on this anymore you don't need he said i've never hunted with more than two or three rounds in a war weapon why do you need thirty rounds so i think this is one of those times when you know when you really seem to be going in the n.r.a. still silent there's nothing they can say at this point lori on a radio show today do three hours of radio and i had a guy call in and say he's got an a r fifteen and he uses it for hunting and then that provoked just a whole series of actual hunters calling up saying you know what a weenie you know it's like you know what what kind of a hunter is that you know somebody's going out with an assault weapon and do you

think that that's becoming the new american meme. well i i i hope that we're that logical the logical voice prevails here it is absurd to think that you need that kind of weaponry for anything nobody needs and you know we are being inundated with messages on our facebook page and phone calls into the office i agree with josh this is the tipping point this is a moment where people are saying and is enough and we've got to put an end to this i i i it was interesting i call them the three joes today joe manchin joe scarborough and joe lieberman all all you know saying the same thing today when you've got those three saying it together we know we've got some change coming so i'm optimistic that. we're going to see some meaningful change you know from your lips to god's ears jonathan you know the brady center has been at the forefront of a lot of. progressive legislation this direction or progressive at least in terms

of you know i don't think that this is necessarily political but you know in terms of doing something about this problem you know james brady and self was a republican but. and do you guys have anything on the table do you see anything happening well i do agree with josh i think this is the tipping point i think one thing that's important is we need to step back and look at the problem of gun violence in general i mean there's a reason why there's attention to these horrific shootings but what we can't do or shouldn't do is lurch from high profile tragedy to high profile tragedy and think how would we prevent the oregon shooting you know how do we prevent the wisconsin spot shooting how even we need to look at the fact that there are one hundred thousand americans who are shot every year thirty thousand of them what ways can we prevent the most deaths and so things like background checks for all gun sales and

that's something we definitely should do it would it would not have affected this shooting but it would save many lives and seventy four percent of gun owners and n.r.a. members support that which shows the disconnect between the n.r.a. leadership which as you've said stands up for the gun industry and the gun owners who many of them i may disagree with their choices to have a gun but a lot of them don't want the bad guys and the dangerous people to have guns absolutely i we have a graphic here are some statistics that were compiled by the daily mail or the british newspaper and it's really a pretty startling graphic ninety fourth they looked at the last year in the united states number of people shot ninety four thousand three hundred eighty eight the number of people killed in england and wales in two thousand and two thousand and thirty nine it's like one hundred ninety people in the u.s.

who were shot on saturday the day before yesterday i think one of the interesting thing is is that our our better medical technology is i did some ask you actually an interesting issue. shootings are going up but deaths are stated somewhat it's not state of the still too many deaths is over thirty thousand deaths a year but we're getting more and more injuries it's just that our trauma surgeons are getting better because they're seeing these things and so people who would have died ten years ago don't. you know very much about us as a people it shows what a moral issue this is and how many people are actually dying and it's something that we just cannot ignore and i think i think john's right this is the time when you have to look at the entire problem and i'm glad that we are taking the issue that we see in newtown but also apply it to a broader context. look if you want to and i think england is instructive because both in england and australia you had one mass shooting and almost overnight the

legislature and the country radically changed their gun laws and then there was a second mass shooting in england they filled the loopholes that from the first time i mean. it was john howard he was the newly elected conservative. to think of the number of mass shootings where our congress has just watched our citizens being mowed down and done absolutely nothing to protect them is really a unconscionable level of callousness but i agree it does seem like something is changing and i'm very optimistic about what the next months will bring so this is the buffalo springfield moment where the. things happen here that's very well we can we can all hope for that it's. it is a challenging time more of tonight's bigger picture discussion on gun violence in america coming up after.

we just put it to me when i was like nine years old. don't you tell the truth. i'm a confession i am a total get a friend that i love bradman hip hop music and. he was kind of a yesterday. i'm very proud of the role without you as a place. i

mean. you know sometimes you see a story and it seems so for langley you think you understand it and then you glimpse something else and you hear or see some other part of it and realized everything you thought you knew you don't know i'm tom harvey welcome to the big picture.